**From:** Petter Wingren-Rasmussen (*petterwr@gmail.com*)

**Date:** Fri Jan 02 2009 - 01:30:55 MST

**Next message:**Petter Wingren-Rasmussen: "Re: [sl4] Rolf's gambit revisited"**Previous message:**John K Clark: "Re: [sl4] Rolf's gambit revisited"**In reply to:**Gwern Branwen: "Re: [sl4] Rolf's gambit revisited"**Next in thread:**Norman Noman: "Re: [sl4] Rolf's gambit revisited"**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] [ attachment ]

On 1/1/09, Gwern Branwen <gwern0@gmail.com> wrote:

*>
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*> Perhaps this is nitpicking, but I disagree. Any Universal Turing
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*> Machine can, by definition, simulate any Turing machine, but that is a
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*> formalism that may not necessarily obtain. I believe one can learn a
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*> fair bit about the simulator. Here's an example. Suppose I am in a
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*> simulation, and I begin counting upwards. 1,2,3...
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*>
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*> What have I learned when I reach 2? That I am not being simulated by
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*> the simplest possible Turing machine, as the busy beaver for that is
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*> 1. What have I learned when I reach 7? That I am not being simulated
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*> by anything as weak as a 2-state 2-symbol Turing machine. What have I
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*> learned when I reach 15? ...3-state 2-symbol... What have I learned
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*> when I reach 47,176,871? That I am not being 5-state 2-symbol Turing
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*> machine.
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Good point, but fairly easily circumvented. The possibly simulated RAI has

no way of knowing if the simulated universe is the same size as the real one

and at what time it is simulated.

If the FAI wait to do the simulation till its large enough to make a

plausible simulated universe that is smaller than the sum of its own

computronium assigned to doing the simulation, the simulated RAI has no way

of figuring out if its a simulation or not.

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