Re: Free Will debate [WAS Free Will not an illusion. AND impotent disorganized gods?

From: fudley (
Date: Fri Dec 30 2005 - 01:11:02 MST

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 "Richard Loosemore" <> said:

> what I was alluding to is the posibility that effects
> happen in the world that are not random

Then they have a cause, not almost a cause, or sort of a cause, or half
a cause, but a cause.

> but which are coupled to their causes (in
> this case human wishes or intentions)
> in a way that is barely governed
> by any regular laws.

Gobbledygook. To say something has a cause is logical, to say something
does not have a cause is logical, to say neither is true is idiotic.

> may lead us to call this something different than cause
> and effect.

The word is random.
> it [psi] looks diabolically irregular and capricious.

Suppose just for a moment that we lived in a world where psi did not
exist but that almost every human being on the planet, including
scientists (and me) wished it did, what do you suppose the results of
psi experiments performed by third rate scientists would look like? They
would look diabolically irregular and capricious.

PS: we live in that world.

>>> I personally have very strong evidence that there is
>>> something_ going on out there that is not encompassed
>>> by normal science.

>> Then you should be writing your Nobel Prize acceptance
>> speech not gabbing on the internet.

> Please try to spare the sarcasm.

No. If what you said was true, if you really do have “very strong
evidence” for the existence of psi then you have made a HUGE discovery
and the Nobel Prize is just one of the countless honors you richly
deserve. In fact you are the greatest scientist since Newton. And that
my friend is no sarcasm, provided of course that what you said was true.

> we tend to be treated with something less than respect.

>From this day forward I solemnly vow to give parapsychology researchers
all the respect they deserve.

> many of us start to feel like doing something else
> and not bothering until the world becomes a
> little more mature about it.

And I feel it is stupid to listen to psi “scientists” until they can
produce one experiment, one, just one, that is repeatable. Until then
they are witch doctors.

> you have laid out a version of reality that you would
> *prefer* to be true, rather than the one that actually is true.

What in hell are you talking about? I would LOVE it if it were true! I
would LOVE it if every one of the claims made by the psi loonies turned
out to be true! Who wouldn’t? I would LOVE to live in Harry Potter’s
world! I would LOVE to take a remedial adult education class in potion
making at Hogwarts!

Unfortunately wishing does not make it so.
> Some parapsychologists have done carefully controlled,
> repeatable experiments that demonstrate the existence
> of certain effects that appear to be inexplicable
> by current laws.


> They publish these results in journals

National Enquirer?

> they meet and discuss them at conferences

Star Trek conventions?

> and they try to find new experiments they can do that will
> probe deeper.

They try to do experiments that will give a more positive psi result,
but the do NOT try to do better experiments. That is not science. That
is Cargo Cult science.

> You can find these results in such journals as:
> International Journal of Parapsychology
> Psychological Bulletin
> European Journal of Parapsychology
> Journal of Parapsychology
> Journal of the Society for Psychical Research
> Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research

Well those are splendid sounding names, they have neat sounding words
like “international” and “European” and “Journal” in them, I realty like
the way they roll off the tongue, they sound very intelligent, highbrow,
brainy, upper class, high IQ, downright spiffy; but why didn’t all those
amazingly brilliant new Einsteins publish their remarkable discoveries
in Nature or Science? Why do almost none of the authors of the articles
in those “Journals” also write in mainstream respectable Science

In truth the “journals” you mentioned above are indeed excellent,
excellent for lining the bottom of your bird cage with.

> At the end of the day, though, it is frustrating
> to work in a theoretical vacuum.

Why? When Roentgen discovered X rays nobody had the slightest idea what
they were, that's why he called them X rays. Nobody could explain them
and they didn't fit in with any current theory, not one. Nevertheless
scientists instantly accepted that they existed because although
Roentgen's claim was absolutely extraordinary so was his evidence; he
had a photograph of the bones in his wife’s hand, you could see the
bones. Let me repeat that, you could see the BONES! And the woman was
still alive! That is just about as good as is possible for evidence to

Although he had no theory for this bizarre phenomena, not even a hint,
his results were instantly accepted. Far from being an outcast Roentgen
became an instant hero. He was the most respected scientist of his age
and he received the very first (well deserved) Nobel Prize in Physics.
The exact same positive response would happen if somebody could show
that the paranormal existed, even if he couldn't explain one tinny tiny
bit of it.

I’ve got to tell you, I’m not holding my breath.

John K Clark

-- - Same, same, but different…

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