From: Olie Lamb (olie@vaporate.com)
Date: Mon Sep 19 2005 - 18:58:36 MDT
OK, clarification time... reducto!
- Complicated is nothing like random - I'm sure you can all think of
simple deterministic number sequences, and contrast them with
complicated sequences that would at first seem random (unpredictable),
but are purely deterministic.
- Complex systems arise from interaction of the parts. Although
phenomena like periodic beats, moire fringes and the like aren't
strictly Complex (just complex), they make very good ilustrations/
analogies of Complex systems. You can't predict moire patterns from
knowing about only one of the contributing patterns.
- (Complex systems involve not only multiple variables, they involve
feedback-forming interactions. No point to that comment.)
- The end result of Complex systems can be simple (Galaxies make nice
spiral shapes) or complicated. See above comments on complicated stuff
and predictability.
- Complex systems can be purely deterministic
- Complex is nothing like random
- I have yet to see "emergence" in the Complex sense defined as
anything other than the end result of Complex systems.
===
"unpredictable" is one of those "impossible" words that gets... uh...
injudiciously used. Just because something is hard to predict, doesn't
make it unpredictable.
A leg bone does not have the characteristics of walking. Ergo, from one
leg bone, one can't predict how an animal will walk... except by knowing
how a lot of animals with similar legbones walk, and by comparing the
variations.
Predictions are funny...
Ben Goertzel wrote:
> HC Wrote:
>>What is the difference between something that is "an
>>unpredictable emergent
>>phenomena" and something that is "random"
>>
>>
>
>An unpredictable emergent phenomenon in a system is a behavior in a whole
>system that we know can in principle be predicted from the behavior of the
>parts of the system -- but carrying out this prediction in practice is
>extremely computationally difficult.
>
>Something is random with respect to a given observer if that observer cannot
>in principle discover any way to predict the thing... (because if there are
>any patterns in it, these patterns are too complex for the observer to
>understand)
>
>
>
>>Either one can be a part of a "complex system" -- and could also
>>be part of
>>any "complex emergent system" or a "dynamic complex emergent system". It
>>seems to me that the only difference between the two arguments is
>>that one
>>is saying that in order for intelligence to be tractable some random
>>variable must be used.
>>
>>
>
>This is a separate point, as my clarification of the meaning of "emergence"
>has hopefully made clear.
>
>It may be that intelligence given limited resources intrinsically requires
>stochastic algorithms, but that is a whole other issue. Stochastic
>algorithms are not all that closely related to emergent phenomena -- one can
>get both emergence and non-emergence from both stochastic and non-stochastic
>algorithms.
>
>-- Ben
>
>
>
>
>
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