From: Keith Henson (hkhenson@rogers.com)
Date: Tue Jun 15 2004 - 17:49:33 MDT
At 08:22 AM 15/06/04 -0800, you wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 "Marc Geddes" <marc_geddes@yahoo.co.nz> said:
>
> > Circular reasoning here. You simply pre-supossed
> > that: 'there is there is no relationship between the
> > reading on the meter and the wishes and opinions of
> > the user or any other human'.
>
>If morality is truly objective then any correlation between the wishes
>of a person and the readings on the meter are purely coincidental, you
>might as well flip a coin as look at the meter.
>
> >humans are moral beings
>
>You can't have it both ways, if humans are moral then morality is what
>they want and morality is subjective. Talk about circular reasoning!
Replying to this as well as several other postings.
What are humans? They are survival machines built by genes that have been
selected by evolution.
Survival for *what*? According to modern evolutionary theory, survival to
propagate the genes that built them. (It *is* circular, but that's the
nature of evolution.)
If you buy into this view, then what people find "moral" should be highly
shaped by what promoted the survival of the genes they carry.
But as Hamilton figured out, the situation is more complicated than just
the genes they carry personally. The genes you carry are also carried in
your relatives, first your family, second your tribe, third your nation or
ethnic group and finally, the whole human race. If your sacrifice results
in a net gain in the number of surviving copies of your genes (compared to
the alternative) then behavior to sacrifice even your life will become more
common by simple evolution.
I remember years ago being disconcerted for reasons I could not express at
the time by some hard core Libertarians who made the claim that the proper
view for a person was to value their life above the entire rest of the
human race. That's not true. It is proper *from the gene's view* to risk
your life and even die so that copies of your genes in [family, tribe,
nation, race] may survive. To the considerable extent our mental biases
are shaped by our genes, this gene based rule determines what we find
"moral," and thus provides an objective basis for "moral."
Was the suicidal defense by the Greeks at Thermopylae against the Persians
in 480 BCE a moral act? Yes from the viewpoint of their genes. That is
one of the reasons the story is attractive and has stayed alive in human
culture for 2,500 years.
Keith Henson
> > --- fudley <fuddley@fastmail.fm> wrote: > On Mon, 14
> > Jun 2004 "Keith Henson"
> > > <hkhenson@rogers.com> said:
> > >
> > > >I think there is a way good and evil can be
> > > measured,
> > > >though perhaps not from a human viewpoint.
> > >
> > > Then morality would have no point. Suppose
> > > Hewlett-Packard announced
> > > that in addition to their line of volt and amp
> > > meters they were coming
> > > out with a good-evil meter, however there is no
> > > relationship between the
> > > reading on the meter and the wishes and opinions of
> > > the user or any
> > > other human; what do you think would happen to HP
> > > stock? I think it
> > > would sink like a rock because the market would know
> > > such a device would
> > > have absolutely no use.
> > >
> > > John K Clark
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Circular reasoning here. You simply pre-supossed
> > that: 'there is there is no relationship between the
> > reading on the meter and the wishes and opinions of
> > the user or any other human'. If morality is
> > objective, then there WOULD be a realationship between
> > the readings on the meter and the wishes and opinions
> > of the user and other humans, since humans are moral
> > beings. At least SOME aspects of human morality would
> > correspond to the readings on the meter.
> >
> > =====
> > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
> > - Gen. John Stark
> >
> > "The Universe...or nothing!"
> > -H.G.Wells
> >
> >
> > Please visit my web-sites.
> >
> > Science-Fiction and Fantasy: http://www.prometheuscrack.com
> > Science, A.I, Maths : http://www.riemannai.org
> >
> > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
> > http://au.movies.yahoo.com
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