RE: Shock level 3 or 4 thinking?

From: Philip Sutton (
Date: Sun Mar 14 2004 - 17:22:06 MST

Hi Ben,

> What makes me think you don't "get" the Singularity fully is partly
> that you keep using analogies from human history. This is not much
> like anything else in human history. The Bolsheviks are not a good
> analogy -- nothing in human history is a good analogy. Because human
> history is about HUMANS and the Singularity is largely not about humans
> (though humans are an important part of it of course)

Of course human history is not going to be a good guide to the
subjectively 'distant' future (any time from the singularity on). But it is a
useful addtion to our thinking for the lead up to the singularity and we
will discover, after the event, that some patterns persist for some time
after (which one's? I don't know, nor does anyone else).

BUT it is NOT good reasoning to say that (human) history is not
relevant *at all*. Ben, you have been drawing on 'history' when you say
you think that "voluntary joyous growth' accords with the nature of the
universe (in this case the history is the history of various aspects of the
cosmos translated into scientific 'laws' then translated into your

In the context of the singularity both of our speculations about the
nature of the universe/reality are equally valid/invalid.

You didn't answer my question in the previous you think that
evolution as a meta-process will continue after the singularity? If you
expect that it will continue then that suggests that you think that 'history'
is still important - because any complex evolving system is a deeply
historical process - where every step along the way shapes the
possibilities that come next and later - whether those possibilities create
temporary continuities or major discontinuities.

So if every step along the way helps to create the proximal future then
we need to pay attention to what we do in every moment of now. In
that context it is still relevant to learn from human history - even in the
face of the singularity - because the now we are in right now has a lot of
recognisable humans in it and they will help shape the proximal future
in important ways (for good or ill or neither).

Cheers, Philip

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