Re: Catholics and the Singularity

From: Darin Sunley (
Date: Mon Jul 01 2002 - 18:40:04 MDT

I conducted my own survey in an Evangelical IRC channel I lurk in from time
to time. The general consensus seeme to be that a mind without faith would
not be able to reason itself to an understanding of the correctness of their
faith, even if it posessed no pride. They seemed to feel very strongly that
some form of supernatural intervention on the part of God is necessary for
a mind to see the truth of their brand of Christianity. Their greatest
concern at first was whether such a mind would be affected by sin, but it
seemed that, either way, the AI would not be able to access the truth by
purely evidenciary means.

Here follows a log of their responses:
[I am HeatDeath in this log.]
* mfibaway examines the corrupted mind that formulates such questions ;)

<js4jc> What does it matter? According to you all will be saved....
<HeatDeath> js4jc: I believe that. But that doesn't answer the question.

<HeatDeath> the question has mainly to do with the accessibility of
metaphysical truths to the intellect.

<vividblue> heat no

<osoclasi> heat: um well it depends on how much info and what info he was
* js4jc starts typing, realizes she's just too beat to bother, and allows
someone else to tackle this one...

<osoclasi> lol
<HeatDeath> oso: assume the mind has access to the real world to any desired
resolution, and the ability to read human minds.
<vividblue> I dont think Catholocism is predestinarian

<vividblue> Therefore it fails in that regard
<mfibaway> HeatDeath, Scripture teaches that the mind is debased and
corrupted by the affects of sin through Adam's fall ....
<Micah> vivid: you've not talked to aquianian or augustinian catholics then

<mfibaway> your postulate is a waste of time since it creates its own
problems and then seeks to solve them
<mfibaway> we can only go by what IS true and objective
<vividblue> Micah do they assert that it is predestinarian?
<mfibaway> not by what we invent to be reality
<osoclasi> heat: i would have to say no then

<osoclasi> heat: is this mind affected by sin?
<HeatDeath> oso: it might be, and it might not be.

<HeatDeath> is that the only determining factor?
<osoclasi> heat: no but it will effect the outcome

<HeatDeath> oso: If we assume the mind is affected by sin, can it?
<osoclasi> heat: because he will have the same prob as we have in dealing
with presuppositions

<osoclasi> heat: it's possible

<HeatDeath> And if we assume the mind is not affected by sin...?
<osoclasi> heat: i would think so

<HeatDeath> oso: just to clarify, what problems do we have in dealing with

<osoclasi> heat: well, sometimes when we get to a verse we say "that is not
what that means" even though that is what it means. Because we read the
bible with already assumed outcomes
<osoclasi> or presuppositions

<osoclasi> everyone has them

<HeatDeath> So you feel that a mind that is affected by sin might not be
able to determine the true denomination by examination if it has
<osoclasi> yep

<osoclasi> traditions effect us as well

<osoclasi> traditions effect us as well
* Micah notes that scripture states that the mind affected by sin (and
unregenerated) cannot understand the Spiritual things of God. (1 Cor. 2:14)

<Micah> and thus, still subject to error

<HeatDeath> Micah: would it be fair to say then that a mind affected by sin,
no matter how great it's ability to examine the real world and the minds of
men, would be able to come to no more certainty regarding the truth of a
particular denomination than any normal human?

<Micah> heat: depends are we talking spiritual regenerate or not?

<HeatDeath> I'm not familiar with the term "spiritual regenerate". We're
taking about an extremely intelligent mind, not necessarily a human mind,
that has no pride but also no faith.

<osoclasi> heat: well i think the extent of adams sin was universal so even
the creature would be affected

<Micah> heat: so we are talking about a mind unaltered by God. While such a
mind might be able to see inconsistancies in certain concepts it would not
fully comprehend the truth and be able to judge accordingly.

<osoclasi> heat: it's not the intellegence that is the final outcome, its

<Micah> Heat: I also believe that no mind in such a state is truly "without
pride". Pride is arguably the first sin.

<HeatDeath> Micah: interesting.
<osoclasi> heat: for instance i am never wrong but sin keeps everyone from
seeing this. :)
<Micah> oso: LOL! Liar and a thief you are!@
<Micah> :)

<HeatDeath> Micah, oso: Do you feel that such a mind could come to a
rational, or even a probabilistic, conclusion that the one true denomination
WAS the one true denomination, even if it had no spiritual capacity to
become a worshipping member?

<Micah> Heat: nope.
<osoclasi> no

End Log.

Darin Sunley,

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